Reasons for change
I recently seen an article that said that people who said they were associated with the Church of Scotland only now represent 24% of Scottish society -less than a quarter. Before those of the sea of Rome become too gleeful, they had declined markedly as well, a figure of 14% was quoted down from 16%, I have seen other older claims that Catholics recently represented 18% even 20%. In the face of immigrants particularly from Poland
boosting those numbers, that is also a marked decline, and that English immigration would probably be protestant, though Church of England, probably up the percentage of protestants slightly though not of the Kirk. Further smaller protestant churches such as the Episcopalians and so on, slightly as well. As an atheist, it makes me wonder if we are now a majority? Certainly protestants had ceased to be a majority group, by the early 80s for sure and more probably some time in the 70s. At the point I was aware of the total (the early 80s) they represented about 42% of Scottish society. The old religious protection racket slowly breaks down in the face of disgust at religious misconduct, discriminatory activities and sectarian killings, turning to rational liberal values instead.
Failing religion & bigotry
Association with bigotry must be a strong causal factor, the Kirk and the Chapel, are nearly silent on the violence and hatred they are seen as connected with. Stronger condemnations of that violence and hatred from them about this would bolster their case and an immoral omission for supposed Christians. They too are silent on the pernicious activities of associational groups such a the Orange Order, the Masons and the Knights of Columba, who are deeply connected to the bigotry in Scotland. Rangers and Celtic their prejudiced chanting, support and veneration of the Ulster terrorist of their choice, their pointless hatred of people of another religion.
Their obsession with the violent politics of Ulster, with it's distractive effects on Scottish politics, discrimination and of course violence, the face those churches are associated with. That with a long series of sexual scandals more often than not pedophile in their nature, particularly for the Catholic church, has left them with a pretty wrecked reputation. If as I think may be case, atheists now represent a majority that is the one of the highest percentage in Europe, Holland leading the way on 67%. Between the sectarian pageant of Old Firm matches with attendant fights, the, Loyal Orange Lodge's idea of street entrainment, the corruption of the Masons and the Knights, the religious apartheid coming from the segregated schooling system, the pedophile scandals in the religiously based care system, they have little to wonder about.
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Fruit of the poisoned tree of segregation
The friction and attendant violence and discrimination of the Old Firm fan is only the poisoned fruit of a deeper root. At the heart of the problem lies segregation, generation after generation are being brought up apart. The cultural differences between catholic and protestant are in fact over all minor and in many other nations freely mix with little problem, not least over the border in England, where catholic -protestant friction is negligible. A desegregation of the system, that allows for religious teaching within a multi-denominational structure, while still allowing some religious schools, extraneous to the majority, all being offered mixed schooling, might I think improve the situation. Children instead of being separated in their communities at birth mixing and becoming familiar, but nonetheless having the Religious Education of their parent's choice. Can only help reduce the friction between these two groups, increase understanding and amity by familiar interaction. Indeed as somebody who went to a mixed denomination school I have seen with my own eyes that this is the case. It is also unfair to other religions that they are treated differently, Muslims, smaller protestant denominations, even the Kirk are not treated equally.
The dread of everybody forced to be a Protestant
The fear, particularly of those devoted to the Sea of Rome, is that they will loose out to the other more prevalent religion. Firstly it's not all that prevalent any more and has been a minority for the best part now of half a century. Secondly the evidence of the nearest city demographically in England, Liverpool 25% catholic about the same in the Glasgow area. Is that the ratio remains fairly constant even with mixed schools. There however is more mixed marriage and swapping of religions, where it is seen as much less of an issue. Most Liverpool families in the sense of extended families have catholic and protestant members. The fears of “absorption”, would seem to be pretty baseless. Indeed for all but the bigoted, that society should be mixed is a positive. It generates tolerance, where separation by the example of Glasgow generates hatred. And secondly a reminder of the sinking religious demographics of both main religions aught to make them worry about what religious bigotry is costing them, people are voting with their feet and in droves.
Outdated immoral religious views
Though as an Atheist myself, I have those humanist beliefs, elastic as the religious are want to point out, but are empirical, moral, liberal and freethinking. They say that fundamentally morally good beliefs can be derived in many ways, dogmatism being even the enemy of the humanist. They say, there could be good derived from religion for society. Not however under the present system, it is producing a self consuming system for these churches. They are failing as outmoded in the face of liberal values, the harbingers of violent and discriminatory sectarianism, they both want a kind of religious apartheid that are at odds with most in society. The defense of which is seen as an imperative that justifies any venal conduct as long as it is in that defense. It promulgates the extremist at the expense of the moderate, the bigot instead of the tolerant. Producing people who claim to be Catholics and Protestants, but to whom, the sermon on the mount or the parable of the Samaritan means nothing, instead they sing the Sash or the Soldier's song. Indeed to those who of us who have a psychiatric training, the term Inadequate Psychopath comes to mind, for not a few associated with this. They are stuck in the doctrines and history, of the 19th or early 20th even 16th century and most of the time Irish history at that. Churches both catholic and protestant in other nations have moved on. If ours don't they will wither in the soil of their own intransigence to nothing.
Pavlovs dogs and drooling Old Firm fans
Segregation particularly the schooling damages the individual both subject to and even perpetrating the act of of sectarianism. It is obvious how those subject to sectarian violence and discrimination are damaged. But the process of creating the individual who acts in a sectarian manner is that of a damaged individual, acting on the Respondent Conditioning of society. The institutions that condition that individual that somebody of a different religion, that is seen in most societies as a detail one. An Australian or a German would just shrug, so what? Here is elevated by association with the politics of Ulster and segregation to a palpable threat. That threat from the other, useful to the adherence to your religions group made apparent by the threat of violence even murder with support for sporting institutes that are seen to represent those exaggerated differences to keep it close to mind. Condition by peer group pressure the person to a threat they must stand against, a cause you must defend, your people whom you must not betray. Then have two sporting institutions take on the mantle of representing this with such frequency? No wonder there is a problem, we allowed it to be institutionalized. And in doing that damaged the minds of so many, and destroyed and marred the lives of others, by their actions.
Old Firm bigotry is not multiculturalism
Old Firm bigotry does not represent multiculturalism, it is a hang back to the Volkish Britain of the Empire and Rule Britannia patriotism, the real face of Brexit, even the Us alone you have to be Catholic to be properly Irish, De Valera and Blue Shirt Ireland before they joined the EU, narrow nationalism, the sort we reject as a group. English and Polish people coming to Scotland should not have to be exposed to this. A Pole who cannot go to Ibrox because he is Catholic, the
English person facing discrimination because of their religion. Even the Irish coming here, do we welcome those steeped in the bigotry of Irish sectarian politics the Johnny Adairs or the Keiren Duffys, or do we present Scotland as a place where they may be free from such? Multiculturalism is about the enriching of society with the variation of culture, both sides benefiting from the friendly interaction of difference. How is this apparent in an Old firm game, that is about the hatred of difference and as such the opposite? It does not enrich us, it demeans us, as people as a nation that this pageant of hatred occurs every so many weeks. It embarrasses us internationally, not least by the disgraceful record of Old Firm supporters abroad. Who ever claim that last nice report in the Record of them changing, is the current state.
Are we damaging migrants?
We are too damaging people who come into the areas of Scotland affected by exposing them to the effects particularly in relation to education of Old Firm bigotry and religious hate.
Are we living amongst groups of religious hypocrites and Psychopaths?
Make no mistake, both Celtic and Rangers fans indulge in organized sectarian discrimination outside the games at Ibrox or Parkhead far more even than violence. Not least all too often, against those who are want to point out the log in the eye of these supposed Christians. That sectarian discrimination and violence is necessary to the process. It creates the threat [retaliation, violent or discriminatory] so the reason for the peer group and the peer group pressure and eliminates the critic by the same means, internal or external. Actually it the central problem in closely associational groups anyway, not least because it frequently creates Psychopaths or more commonly Inadequate Psychopaths as people adept at this process of violence or discrimination
The Peace process and the corpses
The adherents to the Northern Ireland peace process? The Good Friday agreement, often used as little more than, a smoke screen for hate as usual amongst those adherents, via a little spin. At least 25 people have been murdered in Scotland since that with a sectarian motive, a more probable accurate number higher even since it was implemented. That along with incidents of violence, the ones that reached the courts in their several hundreds the true figure probably in the thousands. It begs the question of why Good Friday should be allowed to leave bodies and blood on our streets, by institutionalizing the same causes of violence in Ulster here?
Why do the churches do so little good?
In other nations the role of religion has started to change, in the US for example, the more enlightened aspects there have them as councillors and facilitators for good works in the community. Providing help with drug and alcohol rehabilitation, counselling for the ill or the bereaved, raising funds for hospitals and clinics. Providing practical support and care for their communities irrespective of denomination. They for instance as I mentioned also raise funds for hospitals, Saint Whatever hospice, Anytown Presbyterian, Mount Sinai and so on. Though not I think full hospitals in the NHS, perhaps, financing wings or wards might be possible, relieving a little of the pressure on stretched government funds. The Saint Thomas Aquinas cancer treatment ward, the Saint Giles Kirk pediatric wing and so on. Something more constructive than the efforts put into two sectarian football clubs or saving up your pennies for a daft orange suit an a big drum to bang as such and like tiny-minded march past a chapel.
In using America as an example, I of course refer to the more enlightened side, not the religious right, that donate funds to the Republican party or Trump, or the LDS, amongst whose doctrines is that a black skin is the mark of Kane etc.
An interesting incident occurred when suggesting that Churches and Chapels could be used for counselling this particular person said that Catholic churches should only be used for Catholics. Saint Mary's counselling for the recently bereaved weekly Thurs 6 t0 10 (No Prods thank you)??? Christ would weep
Why should the majority be forced to live with bigotry
There is further moral arguments amongst all this practicality. Why should we the majority who want to live, within a society that is multicultural, be forced to live in an atmosphere of religious hatred and social division? Is not the creation of a more understanding society by the elimination of the cause of hatred not a moral imperative? Why is the wants of groups of people who gleefully participate in sectarian activity, discriminatory and frequently violent in their conduct pandered to? Why is the interests of those who take their political and social cue from violent sectarian Ulster important in our culture at all?
A possible long term alternative multi cultural solution
Perhaps in the long term a system where any religious or indeed other group can apply to an education authority to run a religiously based school. The deal being part perhaps 50% funding but that each county council area has 90% of the main religious groups (Catholic and Church of Scotland) going to multi-denominational schools These schools are regarded as extraneous to mainstream use so that the situation in that emerged in England of forcible conversion to go
to a religious school that took over the local school, is not reproduced. (Indeed the English experimenting with religious school found it far from satisfactory). In this teachers employed on contracts regarding a duty to promote religious tolerance Staff, other Workers and Representatives at all Schools Primary and Secondary and their Pupils be monitored in regard to fulfilling high standards of behaviour and conduct towards people of differing faiths and moral beliefs. I would further suggest that the funds gathered from the religious institution are gathered together into a fund at the central government to help schools in poor areas -rather than spent locally. Also perhaps other groups, could involve themselves secular schools, schools for minorities, black people perhaps. Schools that give emphasis to music or the arts, or sport and so on. The richness of multiple difference instead of two sad old tribes living in the 16th Century ever at war paid for by your tax. However the above only after the present problems are destroyed
Why don't the churches condemn Old Firm violence?
The Kirk and the Chapel, are nearly silent on the violence and hatred they are seen as connected with. Stronger condemnations of that violence and hatred from them about this would bolster their case and an immoral omission for supposed Christians. They too are silent on the pernicious activities of associational groups such a the Orange Order, the Masons and the Knights of Columba, who are deeply connected to the bigotry in Scotland. Rangers and Celtic their prejudiced chanting, support and veneration of the Ulster terrorist of their choice, their pointless hatred of people of another religion are ultimately thier fault.
People want change
Most bizarrely change would be popular politics, the vast majority do not want the sectarian culture. Option poles are unequivocal, it in the 85 to over 90 percent that want sectarianism destroyed.
89 per cent of Scots agree that sectarianism is offensive
89 per cent of Scots agree that sectarianism is unacceptable in Scottish football
85 per cent of Scots agree that sectarianism should be a criminal offence 91 per cent agree that stronger action needs to be taken to tackle sectarianism and offensive behaviour associated with football in Scotland. Almost nine out of every ten Scots believe football is a cause of sectarianism in the country, according to a Scottish government survey.
86% of people thing that the Orange Lodge should be stopped from marching, 89% think the same for Republican marches.
More than half of those who responded to the social attitudes survey said football was the main factor.
Overall, almost 90% said they believed sectarianism was a problem in Scotland. But 69% said they believed it was only a problem in specific areas -mainly Glasgow and the west of Scotland.
And while 79% said they thought Orange Order marches contributed to sectarianism, just 13% believed that it was the main factor.
About half (54%) of the 1,500 people surveyed said they thought that Catholics experienced at least some prejudice, with 41% saying they thought the same about Protestants.
The violence ignored
The academics found an average of 121 attacks were reported for the 24 hours during and after Old Firm games compared to 66 the following week.
Damningly, they found no such association when they carried out the same exercise for Scotland international matches at Glasgow’s Hampden Park.
The chief constable’s figures show that when a match between the two is staged on Saturday lunchtime the amount of violent crime jumps by 172 per cent, nearly three times the normal rate.
The dead ignored why?
The 25 dead at least that. A 2011 report to the Scottish parliament saying there were 15 sectarian deaths between 2001 and 2011 ignored
The amount of disorder across the Strathclyde force area increases by 162 percent compared to the previous Saturday and incidents of domestic abuse by 140 per cent. The number of arrests grows 98 per cent.
When derby matches are held on Sunday lunchtimes, violence increases 168 per cent above the level recorded the same time on the previous Sunday and disorder by 141 per cent.
Complaints of domestic abuse almost double, with 97 per cent more cases recorded, while the number of arrests increases by 97.5 per cent over the previous week.
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Official catholic view on Protestants
The best explanation I can came over said. Because we recognize the validity of non-Catholic baptisms, it means that we also believe the Holy Spirit is working within people outside the formal walls of the Catholic Church in some way. The Holy Spirit is moving in the lives of non-Catholics. If we somehow believed that the Holy Spirit was bound to work only within the confines of the Catholic Church, we would not recognize the validity of these baptisms.
Simply stated, then, we should consider protestant Christians as “Separated Brethren.” The tensions between Catholics and Protestants should not be viewed as a fight between good vs. evil, but as more of a family feud that has now lasted five centuries. God wants reconciliation within this family, and he is working from outside of our Church and from inside our Church to bring this about.
Catholics also believe in a shared bible, they are basically taking their teachings from the same basic text as protestants.
In 2015, Pope Francis declared division among Christians as "the work of the father of lies [the devil]." Francis added that the devil knows that "all Christians are disciples of Christ: that they are one, that they are brothers! He [the devil] doesn't care if they are Evangelicals or Orthodox, Lutherans, Catholics or Apostolic… He doesn't care! They are Christians!"
And from the Kirk
It has been named the Saint Margaret Declaration, after the 11th Century Scottish Queen venerated for her missionary Christian faith and her kindness and generosity to poor people.
Commissioners at the 2022 Church of Scotland General Assembly gave a ringing endorsement to the historic agreement which had already been approved by the Bishops Conference of the Catholic Church in Scotland.
“Friendship is a very deep relationship, a relationship of conscious and deliberate choice, in which individuality is respected and there is room for disagreement, but a relationship in which we stand alongside one another, support one another, rejoice together and weep together, pray for and with each other, and do things together”, said Rev Alexander Horsburgh, Convener of the Ecumenical Relations Committee at the Church of Scotland: “We are declaring a friendship which already exists, which has existed for a long time, and we want everyone to know about it and understand it. By saying out loud that the Church of Scotland and the Catholic Church in Scotland are friends, we contribute to changing, not only the narrative of our churches, but the narrative of our country too. There is no going back.”
Look how far the above is from the evil hatred of Old Firm matches and Orange marches. The violence and squalid acts of discrimination we see around us as a reality. We should be holding them to their word